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Logitech Webcam Pro 9000: Note about grid noise and FPS

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Logitech Webcam Pro 9000: Note about grid noise and FPS

Postby Sven » Fri Oct 22, 2010 4:49 pm

Hello,

We have found a problem and a solution about the Logitech Webcam Pro 9000, concerning grid shaped noise in the scan.

Logitech has "secretly" changed the Pro 9000, the new version is called "Webcam Pro 9000", not "Quickcam Pro 9000". It offers higher frame rates than the old version, but then the images are compressed (lossy) and a grid shaped noise appears on the scans. When you scan flat surfaces and have high quality requirements, you will see the grid. As discussed here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2314

Solution: Select lower frame rates! Select the frame rates that the old Quickcam offered:
800*600: select 15 FPS (the new camera offers up to 30 FPS)
1600*1200: select 5 FPS (the new camera offers 10 FPS).
It seems then the image compression is not applied, and no grid appears.

30vs15fps.png
Scans of flat surface in 800*600: LEFT: 30fps. RIGHT: 15fps.


I have tried this with two new cameras. Everyone, please let us know if you can verify or falsify this! :-)

Thanks!
Sven

PS: And please, update DAVID to 2.6.1 or newer.
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Re: Logitech Webcam Pro 9000: Note about grid noise and FPS

Postby Khalid Khattak » Fri Oct 22, 2010 7:15 pm

Hi Sven
I am getting the similar noise as you have shown in Yellow color (Right side) scan.. I don't know why i am getting... Is their any possibility to avoid?
My paper is 100% flat...
PC: Dell Inspiron i3, 2.27GHz,4GB RAM,64 bit windows 7
CAMERA:
David CCD Mono USB
LASER:
David 5mW Green line laser
PROJECTOR:
3D LED Mini Projector 250lumens, Native 1024x600
[b]http://free3dscans.blogspot.com/
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Re: Logitech Webcam Pro 9000: Note about grid noise and FPS

Postby WalterMo » Sat Oct 23, 2010 3:27 pm

Hi Sven,
I have just made some test scans at 800 x 600 pixels with my Logitech QuickCam C600. Once presented here:
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1666&p=10460&hilit=c600#p10460
And I think this camera is using the same image compressing technique like the new Pro9000. At that time I wondered why it is double as fast as the (old) Pro9000.

The C600 shows the same behavior at 30 and 15 fps like the new Webcam Pro9000.

Also I noticed that the camera image was upside down with DAVID 2.6 and 2.6.1, but not with 2.5.5 or older versions. And each time in DAVID (even without to close it) when I change from camera calibration to 3D Laser Scanning or vice versa the image is again upside down. It's not so nice each time to delete both hooks in the camera settings for horizontal and vertical mirroring.

Walter
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Vergleich C600 30 u 15fps.jpg
Scans with 30fps (green) and 15fps
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Re: Logitech Webcam Pro 9000: Note about grid noise and FPS

Postby smwombat » Sat Oct 23, 2010 6:07 pm

Hi,
I am also having problems with upside down and flipped camera images using David 2.6 and 2.6.1 - with a Logitech Webcam Pro 9000, driver version 12.10.1110.0. In addition, I cannot reliably turn off the (annoying) RightLight feature. (I wish I had known about the differance between Logitech Webcam 9000 and a Quickcam 9000.... they had both at a local store a few months ago - the Webcam was cheaper...so I bought it. I am not sure I can find a Quickcam now.)

I would like to go back to David 2.5 for a while, unfortunately, I did not save the files - just updated David software from a temp directory. Is it possible to get a copy of David 2.5.exe?

thanks,
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Re: Logitech Webcam Pro 9000: Note about grid noise and FPS

Postby WalterMo » Sat Oct 23, 2010 9:18 pm

Sharon, I have sent you a PM.

Walter
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Re: Logitech Webcam Pro 9000: Note about grid noise and FPS

Postby smwombat » Sun Oct 24, 2010 5:01 am

Thank you Walter, I did try the David 2.5 software and all camera images were right-side-up and normal orientation.
I still cannot get the Logitech Rightlight to stop controlling the exposure and gain. All of the David camera properties show a grayed out automatic gain control , with fixed sliders for Exposure and Gain. Device settings are firmware version 5.0.116, driver version 12.10.1110.0 (I thought this was an o.k. driver version - it is what came with my camera and has numeric values for all the Device Settings sliders).
I tried to change the setting in the Logitech Webcam software, but whenever I click on the 'Do not use automatic RightLight settings' button, it immediately unselects and returns to the 'Use Automatic RightLight settings'. Closing the Logitech software has no effect on the David automatic gain control (Advanced properties tab).

I did a few good scans before, and I thought I could control the gain/exposure ... perhaps I misremember?
Has anyone had similar problems?
I would be very grateful for any help and suggestions.
thank you,
Sharon
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Re: Logitech Webcam Pro 9000: Note about grid noise and FPS

Postby MagWeb » Sun Oct 24, 2010 6:30 pm

Hi,

yes I know the problems switching off rightlight. I never found a stable strategie....but after some tries/restart of the logitech software / unplugging the cam: suddenly you can switch RL off again... weired :roll:

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Re: Logitech Webcam Pro 9000: Note about grid noise and FPS

Postby LittleSilverstar » Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:32 am

hi@all!

the grid is gone! :D Because now I'm scanning with the monochrome CCD-Cam from the DAVID shop.

Not satisfied with the high noise in my new scans, and Shapefusion still not abel to stitch the non-grid scans, I wonder if the calibration corner is about 90°, so I tested with backroundfilter -1.

See what happend in the attachment: the left side of the calibration corner couldn't be scanned.
tried different settings with gamma and gain --> no difference
tried different exposuretimes 1/16, 1/30, 1/60 --> no difference
tried different focal distances, and different distances of the laserline --> no difference

Maybe there is some basically mistake I do while scanning.

Hopefully you see what's my problem...

Greets, Jenny
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calibcorner.pdf
(1.22 MiB) Downloaded 7647 times
PC: AMD Athlon II X2, 2.91GHz, 2.75 GB RAM, NVIDIA GeForce 7025, Win XP Professional
LASER: green and red focusable laser
CAM: Logitech Pro 9000, DAVID-CAM-1-M
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Postby hal » Mon Oct 25, 2010 9:41 am

Hello Jenny,

LittleSilverstar wrote:[...] so I tested with backroundfilter -1.

Have you also set the right value for the "AllowPointsBehindPlanes"? You need to change it to "True".
To scan the panels and behind they, you need to change both parameters: "BackgroundFilterFactor" and "AllowPointsBehindPlanes".

Mattia
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Re: Logitech Webcam Pro 9000: Note about grid noise and FPS

Postby Sven » Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:58 pm

Khalid Khattak wrote:Hi Sven
I am getting the similar noise as you have shown in Yellow color (Right side) scan.. I don't know why i am getting... Is their any possibility to avoid?
My paper is 100% flat...

That noise is extremely low (far below 1 mm) and comes from camera noise and/or laser Speckle effect. It looks stronger in the 3D window than it is. I think you can't do much about it, only increase "Smooth".
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Re:

Postby LittleSilverstar » Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:06 pm

hal wrote:Hello Jenny,

LittleSilverstar wrote:[...] so I tested with backroundfilter -1.

Have you also set the right value for the "AllowPointsBehindPlanes"? You need to change it to "True".
To scan the panels and behind they, you need to change both parameters: "BackgroundFilterFactor" and "AllowPointsBehindPlanes".

Mattia



@mattia

thanks a lot! now it scans both sides, and the result so far is, that the calibration corner is exactly about 90°.
PC: AMD Athlon II X2, 2.91GHz, 2.75 GB RAM, NVIDIA GeForce 7025, Win XP Professional
LASER: green and red focusable laser
CAM: Logitech Pro 9000, DAVID-CAM-1-M
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Re: Logitech Webcam Pro 9000: Note about grid noise and FPS

Postby Sven » Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:08 pm

WalterMo wrote:The C600 shows the same behavior at 30 and 15 fps like the new Webcam Pro9000.

Also I noticed that the camera image was upside down with DAVID 2.6 and 2.6.1, but not with 2.5.5 or older versions. And each time in DAVID (even without to close it) when I change from camera calibration to 3D Laser Scanning or vice versa the image is again upside down. It's not so nice each time to delete both hooks in the camera settings for horizontal and vertical mirroring.

Walter


OK, it seems the special treatment is necessary for all(?) Logitech cameras. Will include it in the next version.
Does anyone have a C600 with original lens installed? Then please set up camera settings for calib, scanning and texture appropriate for an average setup, close DAVID, and please send me the config.xml file. THANKS!

Sven
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Re: Logitech Webcam Pro 9000: Note about grid noise and FPS

Postby Sven » Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:11 pm

@Sharon, @Gunter,

About the RightLight problem:
Please try the following: Uninstall the Logitech driver. Then install it again, and choose only the driver. I think you have to select "custom installation", then unselect Logitech Vid and other options, only install drivers. Then the annoying Logitech window does not pop up all the time, and at least on my system RightLight can be switched off and stays off. :)

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Re: Logitech Webcam Pro 9000: Note about grid noise and FPS

Postby Sven » Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:18 pm

@Jenny,

With the CCD camera you should have very low noise only. Please set all camera settings to default (there is a default button) and only adjust exposure. Usually you get less noise when you turn up the mechanical aperture and turn down the exposure time. In your image the line seems rather bright.

Sorry, your measurement of the 90° angle does not work like that. When DAVID calculates 3D point, it assumes that the background panels have exactly 90°, then computes the laser light plane from that --> the result will always be 90°. You'll have to check that by other means.

What kind of noise do you have? Usually a not-90°-angle corner will not cause noise, but scan distortions / deformation.

Sven
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Re: Logitech Webcam Pro 9000: Note about grid noise and FPS

Postby LittleSilverstar » Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:20 am

Sven wrote:@Jenny,

With the CCD camera you should have very low noise only. Please set all camera settings to default (there is a default button) and only adjust exposure. Usually you get less noise when you turn up the mechanical aperture and turn down the exposure time. In your image the line seems rather bright.

Sorry, your measurement of the 90° angle does not work like that. When DAVID calculates 3D point, it assumes that the background panels have exactly 90°, then computes the laser light plane from that --> the result will always be 90°. You'll have to check that by other means.

What kind of noise do you have? Usually a not-90°-angle corner will not cause noise, but scan distortions / deformation.

Sven


Ähm.... :oops: , yes, you see, I'm not really skilled in optical physics.
Thought, that you can check the corner by set the settings like I did and look if there are some concave or convex bumps (found that in the forum, maybe there is some misunderstanding)
There is no obviously distorsion/deformation, let's say: I can't see any. But I need exact scans of the smal details (mm).
Have the same kind of noise Khalid Khattak has told, like the yelllow scan above. I can accept now, that there is no better resolution.
But can't accept, that shapefusion won't stich my scans. I will do some scans now, and post it later in the shapefusion-place.
So I just have to set the exposure and aperture? No regulation with gamma and gain?

Thank you very much Sven!

Greetz, Jenny
PC: AMD Athlon II X2, 2.91GHz, 2.75 GB RAM, NVIDIA GeForce 7025, Win XP Professional
LASER: green and red focusable laser
CAM: Logitech Pro 9000, DAVID-CAM-1-M
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