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Does David support 4k camera?

Problems, solutions and discussion about scanning with a video projector and stripe patterns.

Re: Does David support 4k camera?

Postby Curiousjeff » Thu Jan 28, 2016 8:54 am

I am not sure that the actual fps rate is a reliable measure. You must probably take into account the power of the PC

The Nikon D5200 is limited to 1920x1080p @ 30 fps

My total scan time from the push of the button to scan in fusion was 15 seconds with 29 patterns with this computer:

Intel Xeon E5-1620 v2 @ 3.7 GHz, ram 64GB
Windows 7, 64 bit
SSD hard drive
Nvidia quadro K4000

The time went down to 9 seconds with less patterns and with no noticeable quality difference.

All newer Nikon have 1920x1080p @ 60 fps

I don't have the Nikon anymore, but I now have a Panasonic GH4. This has 1920x1080p @ 60 fps and David is showing between 50 and 60 fps grabbing speed. More then double from what I had before.

I have not timed a singled scan yet, but I except that it should be faster then before, below 10 seconds for 29 patterns. I will confirm when I give it a try.

But strangely enough, the 4k capture drops to around 5 fps even though the output from the camera is at 30 fps. But this was tested on a much less powerful laptop.

Unfortunately, I do not have as good results for the moment with the GH4 as I did with the Nikon.

There is surface artifact that I attributed to the 4k resolution at first, but I now realise that it is also present in Fullhd with the GH4. :?

For lens on the Nikon, I used a standard low cost Nikon zoom lens and my Canon 60 mm/2.8 macro lens with a home made adaptor.

Jeff
Panasonic GH4 4K with lens 12-35, Inogeni 4K to USB3 hdmi capture device, projectors: Acer K135/Acer K11/NEC V260X, Canon 60D, macro 60 mm, MagicLantern
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Re: Does David support 4k camera?

Postby Curiousjeff » Fri Jan 29, 2016 2:38 pm

Some results using Panasonic GH4 in 1920 x 1080p @ 60 fps with Blackmagic

12 patterns -> 5 seconds
22 patterns -> 10 seconds
29 pattenrs -> 17 seconds

David is displaying between 50 and 60 fps.

If I set the GH4 at 1920 x 1080p @ 30 fps then David displays 30 fps.
Panasonic GH4 4K with lens 12-35, Inogeni 4K to USB3 hdmi capture device, projectors: Acer K135/Acer K11/NEC V260X, Canon 60D, macro 60 mm, MagicLantern
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Re: Does David support 4k camera?

Postby micr0 » Fri Jan 29, 2016 5:30 pm

Thanks Jeff,

I just arranged an HD (1920x1200) 50fps Industrial camera for evaluation purposes and will get to play with it all next week. I'm also borrowing a new HD LED projector that I should have later today. I'll run some tests and post back here. The projector is import because I want to test a theory about DLP projectors and the pixel pattern with David.

Stand by.

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Re: Does David support 4k camera?

Postby Curiousjeff » Fri Jan 29, 2016 8:56 pm

For the moment, all the test I have done clearly give the tumbs down to the diamond shaped pixels.

They all work (see my three projectors below) but the K135 gives much more surface artifacts (waves, stripes, etc...)

I am not sure how important is the resolution of the projector, since Narmala showed that more patterns is not always better.

Please post your findings.

Jeff
Panasonic GH4 4K with lens 12-35, Inogeni 4K to USB3 hdmi capture device, projectors: Acer K135/Acer K11/NEC V260X, Canon 60D, macro 60 mm, MagicLantern
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Re: Does David support 4k camera?

Postby micr0 » Sat Jan 30, 2016 12:47 am

Curiousjeff wrote:For the moment, all the test I have done clearly give the tumbs down to the diamond shaped pixels.

They all work (see my three projectors below) but the K135 gives much more surface artifacts (waves, stripes, etc...)

I am not sure how important is the resolution of the projector, since Narmala showed that more patterns is not always better.

Please post your findings.

Jeff



Exactly. This projector doesn't use DLP so shouldn't have diamond pixels. It seams obvious that the edge bluing of diamond pixel type projectors would cause errors in the projected image.

This projector is also full HD so I'll see if the resolution makes a difference. I suspect that resolution wont be as important as the orientation of the pixels and the sync between the projector and the camera.

I just got a notice that I'll have the camera this Tuesday so I won't have results until then

Stand by.

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Re: Does David support 4k camera?

Postby Curiousjeff » Thu Feb 04, 2016 12:01 pm

Using a Fullhd (1920 x 1080 p) signal (from Nikon D5200 or Panasonic GH4) gives great results with an HDMI capture card. And it is very fast with the Blackmagic Intensity. I get up to 60 fps in David from the GH4.

Unfortunately, 4K UHD signal ( 3 840 × 2 160 ) does not. It works but the results is not better due to surface artifacts.

I tried various settings (more patterns, phase shift, etc...) but with no visible improvements.

Below is my last attempt at using 4k. The scan is very sharp but with surface problems. This is after a 3000 fusion.

For now, I will stop testing 4K and wait until it becomes more mainstream.

Jeff
Attachments
2016-02-03_23-37-31.png
Panasonic GH4 4K with lens 12-35, Inogeni 4K to USB3 hdmi capture device, projectors: Acer K135/Acer K11/NEC V260X, Canon 60D, macro 60 mm, MagicLantern
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Re: Does David support 4k camera?

Postby micr0 » Thu Feb 04, 2016 3:56 pm

I got the new camera (1920x1200) the other day but I didn't think to ask for a lens with it. All my lenses are for 2/3" or 1/2" sensors and therefore throw the focal length way off then used with this new 1.2" chip. I hope to have a new lens by today or tomorrow. I was ale to Micky mouse my rig and get a few scans. At 60fps it is twice as fast but having serious distortion issues that show up as scans that don't align closely at all. By the naked eye it looks like about 6-8mm over 400mm (calibrated with 250mm panels). Because the camera was not in a good location I don't think my calibration is great, so I'll play around with that first next time. Having said that I was wondering how your accuracy over the entire scan envelop is? have you tried any long parts that have been rotated around the X (?) axis?


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Attachments
Align 2.jpg
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Re: Does David support 4k camera?

Postby Curiousjeff » Thu Feb 04, 2016 4:17 pm

I have the impression that the alignment is good, but I need to do more testing.

For the moment, I am scanning mostly around Y with a 30 mm panel. I have taken scan also from all sides including top and bottom.

I followed your advice and did not stop down the lens to much. I think it is at f 11 (since this is a Canon lens on the Panasonic GH4, I must adjut the F stop on the Canon first).

I think (and hope) that with a good lens and a good calibration board, the alignment should be nearly perfect.

Jeff
Panasonic GH4 4K with lens 12-35, Inogeni 4K to USB3 hdmi capture device, projectors: Acer K135/Acer K11/NEC V260X, Canon 60D, macro 60 mm, MagicLantern
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Re: Does David support 4k camera?

Postby micr0 » Fri Feb 05, 2016 4:48 pm

After doing a bit of reading the fact that I done have a lens made for the sensor format seems to be a majority of my distortion issue. I hope to have a proper lens with he right focal length for this 1" sensor by monday. Ill update when I can.

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Re: Does David support 4k camera?

Postby Curiousjeff » Wed May 11, 2016 9:59 pm

I made some test and discovered that the cause of the surface artifacts in 4K mode (3840x2160) were due to the settings of the video signal from the Panasonic GH4.

The sine waves in DLS were flickering.

I made a test using the color bar from the GH4 and my new HDMI capture device (INOGENI 4K to USB3), the sine wave were rock solid, no flickering at all.

This was a good sign that the GH4 and the Inogeni were no creating the flickering because of some electric problem.

I then played around with the settings on the GH4 (change WB and some other things) and the result is.....AMAZING !!!!

I don't have my micro lens handy so this is taken from "far" away.

Nevertheless, I am thrilled with the result. Easy, fast (around 30 seconds per scan), great resolution and no surface artifacts.

This was using a vertical setup, 22 patterns and the NEC projector.

The GH4 is a great camera with a tremendous amount of possible settings, even very fine shutter control, but that was not even necessary here. The only negative point I can think of is that the lens, even in manual mode, will loose focus at each new startup, But this will not be a problem when using a Canon or Nikon lens since in that case, the lens cannot be controlled.

The INOGENI capture device is fantastic, great tech support and easy to use. It's USB3 so it can go on my desktop or my laptop.

Time for some intensive scanning...

Jeff
Attachments
2016-05-11_22-32-15.png
2016-05-11_22-34-30.png
Panasonic GH4 4K with lens 12-35, Inogeni 4K to USB3 hdmi capture device, projectors: Acer K135/Acer K11/NEC V260X, Canon 60D, macro 60 mm, MagicLantern
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Re: Does David support 4k camera?

Postby Curiousjeff » Thu May 12, 2016 5:31 pm

Some final thoughts on 4K ... for now:

It is impossible to completly get rid of the flickering.
The flickering is not a frequency problem. With the GH4, you can increment the frequency speed by 1/10 hz (example: 60 hz, 60.1 hz, 60.2 hz, etc...). I get a perfectly stable image without lines across the sreen.
The flickering is maybe from the projector (color wheel ?) or something with the 4k mode of the Panasonic. In any case, in DLS, using live view and maximum zoom, you can see the slight flicker. Also the Sine waves move slightly.
The surface artifacts are stronger as the object gets closer to the scanner.
Fusion 3000 gets rid of most surface artifacts (see below)

And finally, I am not sure that the scan is better then using fullhd (1980x1200) which is must faster :shock:

A goodbye to my gorilla in 4K below.

Jeff
Attachments
2016-05-12_18-17-51.png
2016-05-12_18-18-57.png
Panasonic GH4 4K with lens 12-35, Inogeni 4K to USB3 hdmi capture device, projectors: Acer K135/Acer K11/NEC V260X, Canon 60D, macro 60 mm, MagicLantern
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Re: Does David support 4k camera?

Postby drndadoo » Fri May 13, 2016 10:51 am

Hi Curiousjeff,

you've done a good job with this testing. 4k scans are better then full HD scans, but I am not sure how much better.
Comparing results, costs and time to make a single scan between two setups IMHO 4k scans are "overkill" at the moment.
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Re: Does David support 4k camera?

Postby micr0 » Tue May 17, 2016 7:45 pm

I'm going to test your setup too. As per the other thread and some previous posts about alignment issues cause by slight distorting (and without going into a long back story), I tried using the Canon d600 in Live View for scanning. My experiments were very quick and sloppy but the result definitely confirmed my suspicions. Even as bad as the surfaces were and with the ridiculous amount of noise in the scans the alignment was near perfect even with just the initial course alignment done automatically between scans.

Going to dig deeper. Stand by.
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Re: Does David support 4k camera?

Postby Curiousjeff » Tue May 17, 2016 9:46 pm

As mentionned:

1) The Canon DSLR cameras will NOT work with an HDMI capture device and David (except the high end 5D Mark IV)
2) Blackmagic has terrible tech support. I don't use that card anymore. 4K never worked
3) The INOGENI is a very good product and excellent tech support but with a higher price tag. Easy and fast to use with David.
4) You need to use a camera with a clean HDMI output and a progressive signal

Before spending all that money, you should try to mount the Canon lens on your camera with a Canon to C-mount adaptor.

There is a trick to block the aperture of the Canon lens before you remove it from the camera. You cannot changed that once on the adapator but you can focus :D

I am suprised that with your very good camera, you can't get near perfection. Your scan of the Smart engine (or part ?) were excellent.

Jeff
Panasonic GH4 4K with lens 12-35, Inogeni 4K to USB3 hdmi capture device, projectors: Acer K135/Acer K11/NEC V260X, Canon 60D, macro 60 mm, MagicLantern
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Re: Does David support 4k camera?

Postby Curiousjeff » Thu May 19, 2016 7:58 pm

Strange behavior:

I am trying to calibrate the DLS cardboard calibration panel, size 30 mm

The signal from the camera is 4k.

1) The signal is converted to full-hd by the INOGENI -> calibration Ok.

2) Same setup, no change except the use of the 4k signal directly. - > "Projector calibration failed"

???

Jeff

Ok, I noticed that the Quality settings was on also on in 4K (58 patterns). I guess that is just to much for the moment. Using default (44 patterns) resolved the problem.
Attachments
Untitled-1.jpg
Failure.jpg
Panasonic GH4 4K with lens 12-35, Inogeni 4K to USB3 hdmi capture device, projectors: Acer K135/Acer K11/NEC V260X, Canon 60D, macro 60 mm, MagicLantern
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